The following post contains the transcript of the conversation between Debi Marshall and Lewis Turtur in Debi Marshall's Frozen Lies podcast, I have limited this just to their conversation and not included Debi's annotations or explanations.
I have tried to write in the same way Lewis speaks
--
Debi Marshall: Lewis nice to meet you and good to find you, I've been looking for you for a few days now in Sydney, luckily we found you through where you're living now, and you've agreed to talk, so lets talk
Lewis Turtur: ok, alright then
DM: we have a lot to talk about
LT: ok then
DM: so when the police came to you Lewis, what did they say about the suppression's? who approached you?
LT: The police, called up a few months ago and said 'the suppression orders going to be lifted, do you mind?' and I said no not really, you know its bound to come out sooner or later my name so
DM: Let's go back to the beginning Lewis, so did you have any involvement with Von Einem?
LT: I had sex with Von Einem.. but I didn't have anything to do with the murders or that there so
DM: nothing to do with the murders at all?
LT: nothing at all, the police cleared me, and the DNA cleared me too so
DM: when did they clear you?
LT: I was a witness for them I suppose so.. and I haven't heard anything else about it so
DM: How long ago was that?
LT: ohh.. 1999 maybe?
DM: Just so I'm very clear the Prosecution contacted you..
LT: Yes
DM: and said Von Einem has applied for parole, we'd like you to be a witness for us, to ensure he does not get out on parole, does that sound correct?
LT: Yes
DM: and what did your evidence entail, what did you have to say?
LT: what I knew about him, where he used to take me for sex and various places like that, yeah
DM: ok lets talk about that then, so when you say 'he used to take you for sex' - what does that mean?
LT: we had sex
DM: He'd pick you up?
LT: I met him once, met him at 'Number 1', it was down by the Torrens ok
DM: Jolley's Boat house?
LT: Yeah Jolley's Boat.. down there
--
LT: and he took me some place up in the Adelaide Hills, and we had sex in his car there, that was the place, that was close to where one of the body'
s was found, so that's why the police wanted to know so..
DM: which body?
LT: I don't remember
DM: well can you remember the year?
LT: Love you're going back years..
DM: Well we know the first murder was in '79 and the last murder in 1983
LT: Yeah yeah
DM: So if it was in 1980 we could possible assume..
LT: Oh maybe even before that, it'd be in the '70s then
DM: It could have been Alan Barnes then?
LT: Could have been, I'm not sure..
DM: looking back, when you know you had sex that time in the car, near where one of the bodies was later found, how does that make you feel?
LT: scared, because it could have been me, it could have been me, that's why I brought it up to the police so..
DM: were you.. anything I say to you by the way, i do not mean to be the slightest bit offensive
LT: no no that's fine..
DM: so please don't take offense
LT: .. I have thick skin
DM: I'm just being a nosey journalist, you didn't have an ongoing relationship as such..
LT: oh no on no no..
DM: ..you just had sex with him?
LT: .. just had sex a few times
DM: a few times, so when you say he took.. you had sex near where one of the bodies was found, clearly you didn't know one of the bodies was there, did he say that to you?
LT: that happened before one of the body's was there ok
DM: oh ok, that's how he knew the area
LT: that's how I knew the area
DM: how did you find him.. what kind of bloke was he, what sort of person?
LT: actually I thought he was quite passive..
DM: mmhmm
LT: ..he was never aggressive like that to us..to me, but then I am a larger person so he couldn't overpower me.. but no.. I was shocked when I found out he was a suspect or charged with these murders.
DM: ok so.. how. How did you come to meet Von Einem in the first place?
LT: through a friend, through a friend
DM: Do you know which friend that was?
LT: yes but he's no longer here so I cant really say his name, it was Brian, but I cant say his last name..
DM: Brian Gant?
LT: yes
--
DM: we all have a circle of friendships..
LT: yeah
DM: .. who was your circle of friendship, who were the people you hung out with?
LT: well most of them are all dead now so..
DM: that doesn't matter so, can you give me..
LT: it does
DM: their names?
LT: Brian, Noel..
DM: Noel Brooks[sic]
LT: yes
DM: Brian Gant
LT: Brian Gant, There was Pru
DM: Pru Firman
LT: we stuck together, through thick and thin ok
--
DM: ok it was suggested that you, with some of the people you just named, that the boys were taken to your house, and you made the beds ready for those boys, and you lit the candles for them
LT: what candles? I cant understand anything about candles.. I don't remember candles, I know some of the boys did come over there, he brought some boys over there to our places.. but they left alive in the morning ok
DM: yep ok.. and I don't believe there is a suggestion that they didn't..
LT: I know
DM: ..I don't recall Lewis, your name being intimately associated with any of the murders, and it comes up in Trevor Peters' diaries as you know, tell me about Trevor Peters
LT: Who's Trevor Peters?
DM: You never met him? that's interesting
LT: no..
DM: ok he was a gay man.. who was very close friend of Denis St Denis the Hairdresser..
LT: I know the hair dresser yes..
DM: Trevor Peters was a prolific diary keeper, and he wrote diaries all his life, one of the diaries named you, as being umm, the person who had the bed ready and had the candles ready
LT: They went to a bed, but I don't know anything about candles.. no no there was no candles
DM: never?
LT: never
DM: so he was exaggerating then?
LT: yes I think he was..
DM: but he got half of it right
LT: well the police know the guys came back to our place so
DM: what sort of condition were these guys in?
LT: they were drugged, Von Einem had drugged them
DM: do you know what, I think you're incredibly courageous to admit that, so how did you be in a position where Von Einem was bringing boys, drugged, back to your house, not just boys - minors, underage boys who were drugged, back to your house - how come Lewis
LT: I don't know.. honestly, it was a long time ago so
DM: how come you got the lucky dip?
LT: I think I was just stupid at the time ok.. but anyway cant live..
DM: how many boys Lewis?
LT: I don't know honestly
DM: roughly?
LT: maybe half a dozen, but that half a dozen were.. woke up the next morning ok, and wet home so
DM: went home, how would they get home?
LT: catch the train home, or catch a bus home
DM: ok and again not trying to be offensive asking questions, that's why we're here isn't it..
LT: yeah
DM.. and you've agreed to talk, you say the boys were drugged, how drugged? in what condition were they to be giving consent?
LT: umm.. I don't know how they were drugged ok.. umm.. none of it is making any sense, I don't know, all I know is they came.. he dropped them off at our place, he went home, we let them sleep it off, they left in the morning so
DM: ok this is not the story I've heard
LT: isn't it?
DM: the story I've heard is, and this is why its good you're getting your right of reply here, your opportunity to tell your side of the story. So the story I've heard is the boys were dropped off by Von Einem, he would sometimes leave them there, he would sometimes stay with them, but he was quite territorial with those boys, he things he wanted to do to those boys..
LT: no I never saw any of that.. nothing
DM:.. you never saw that?
LT: never saw that so
DM: but you know that that's what he did don't you?
LT: we heard afterwards, that that's what he did, but he never did that while they came back to my place, I would let that happen ok
DM: ok, so what would happen to the boys when they got to your place then?
LT: they usually would just sleep it off..
DM: why would you accept drugged boys back at your house?
LT: because I was a stupid fool wasn't I..
DM: how old were you? roughly
LT: mid 20's
DM: ok did anyone have sex with those drugged boys back at your house?
LT: I 'spose some of them did yes
DM: who was the someone Lewis?
LT: Noel and all them, but look it was a long time..
DM: its ok.. there's a lot of people out there Lewis, a lot of victims families, who need to know answers from people like you who were with Von Einem, not at the murders, but who knew him, who can say what you're saying, 'yes he did drop these drugged boys off to our house' so you're courageous enough to say that, so could you please tell me who had sex with those boys?
LT: no I can't.. I'm sorry its going a bit too far..
DM: ok so.. can I assume then, without you naming them, umm that they were the people you named earlier?
LT: yes
DM: so, I'll go through those names, so Pru Firman, who's now dead - suppression has been lifted on her name, Noel Brooks[sic] who is now dead - suppression's been lifted on his name, Brian Gant, dead - suppression lifted, and suppression lifted on your name - again not trying to be offensive with this question - but how come all the others had sex with these boys but you didn't?
LT: ....Yes I've had sex with them ok
DM: ok, Lewis thank you, transparency and truth always works, because there's no point otherwise
LT: ok
DM: ok so Von Einem would pick the boys up, who was in the car please Lewis mostly when Von Einem was picking these boys up?
LT: anyone could be in the car, the girls, the drag queens, or whoever, or he did it by himself
DM: ok, they didn't have mobile phones in those days, how did he contact the group?
LT: he didn't contact the group, he'd just turn up at night and dump the people off, we'd get woken up, and he'd have to go because he had to get back to work or couldn't take them back to his mother's so
DM: ok
LT: he just dumped them off to our place
DM: but when he dropped them off, sometimes it'd be midnight? two o'clock in the morning?
LT: two o'clock sure - four or five in the morning before sun rise or so
DM: ok and then people in the house would essentially take turns with the boys is that right?
LT: occasionally but not all the time ok
DM: who was the person that had to get up for the boys, was it you, was it Pru Firman, who got that job?
LT: whoever got awake, whoever got woken up ok
DM: and what was the average age of the boys that got taken to the house roughly?
LT: 17 or 18 I'd say
DM: ok so drugged, but not underage, did you ever have sex with an underage boy?
LT: no
DM: how would you know they weren't underage? if they were drugged
LT: I suppose I wouldn't know, but yeah, I never had sex.. no..
DM: ok, look this is a very indelicate question but its very important you answer it please, and I know I'm belabouring this point, but the boys are brought back, you had made the bed up?
LT: well if there's a bed there or a lounge room or something like that, on the lounge
DM: how? how would they get into the house? can you walk me through that MO please
LT: Von Einem would carry them in or they stagger in, then lay down and fall asleep
DM: and then someone would have sex with them?
LT: yes
DM: rape them
LT yes
DM: ok..
LT: usually Von Einem first
--
DM: what sort of mood would Von Einem be in? when he'd bring these boys in, was he elated?
LT: excited.. excited
DM: was he sexually excited?
LT: I don't know honestly, honestly I don't know
DM: how did you know about all of the drugging of the young boys, and you participated in that, but you weren't involved in the murders, how'd that happen?
LT: well Von Einem used to get Mandrax ok, and no one could get Mandrax for some reason, but Von Einem could get them, and we'd take Mandrax, he'd give us Mandrax and all that so
DM: ok so you had a drug habit?
LT: yes
DM: what were you using?
LT: everything
DM: heroin?
LT: yes
DM: marijuana?
LT: yes
DM: uppers?
LT: uppers, everything
DM: downers?
LT: everything
DM: right so you were off your face a lot of the time?
LT: yes
DM: how much of the time?
LT: umm every weekend
DM: ok do you in someway think that that you know excuses what happened?
LT: no it cant be an excuse, you've still got a bit of common sense there, but yeah
DM: ok so it appears to me that Von Einem had some type of Svengali hold over people, what was that hold? what was it, that everyone kept his secrets?
LT: the drugs maybe, we were all vulnerable for those drugs
DM: and did Von Einem ever give you heroin?
LT: no no, Von Einem only had access to pills, pills you couldn't get anywhere else, that's what amazed us about him ok
DM: where were those pills coming from, through his doctor?
LT: through his doctor but we never knew who his doctor was you see
DM: I think I do know who his doctor was
--
DM: and was his doctor getting those pills through Asia? where they coming from?
LT: no idea, all we knew was he used to get these pills, and no one else could ok
DM: what did he have over that doctor? what was in it for the doctor to give Von Einem the pills?
LT: no idea.. no idea
--
DM: were you ever involved with luring those boys into the car?
LT: no, oh I would have been in the car but we didn't lure anyone in, boys got into the car with a whole group of people
DM: so how many people would be in the car when the boys were lured in?
LT: either him by himself, or another person
DM: usually who?
LT: well.. one of the girls
DM: so Pru or?
LT: so Pru or <REDACTED>
DM: did they ever pick up girls?
LT: no just always males
DM: take me through a scenario where you were in the car one night and you helped lure people in
LT: we'd offer them a drink, and they'd drink it, and sometimes we would lace them with pills, or rohypnol or whatever maybe
DM: and was it usually one boy or two boys?
LT: one usually, never more than two, one usually yeah
DM: because one's easier to handle
LT: yeah easier
DM: and so how long would it normally take to pass our or become extremely groggy
LT: an hour.. an hour
DM: what would happen, was Von Einem driving or someone else?
LT: Von Einem would be driving
DM: right, and what would he be saying? so take me to the point, where you'd see the boys hitching or you're going to actually force them into the car
LT: we didn't force anyone into a car
DM: ok so take me to where.. ok.. so Von Einem's driving..
LT: they all hopped in the car, they were hitchhiking, given a lift home, he'd offer them a drink
DM: sure so what I'm asking is, what would Von Einem say?...
LT: honestly I don't remember, it was 20 years ago.. even 30 years ago, I cant remember word for word what he was saying..
DM: but would he..
LT: .. half the time I was drugged out anyway, so I don't really care, i was in my own little world
DM: ok but clearly he was the ring leader here, you weren't the one making the decisions were you to get those hitch hikers in the car, you were just there for the drugs
LT: drugs yes
DM: Lewis did you ever think 'Gee this is wrong?'
LT: we thought.. I dunno, it was wrong, but in the end we thought the lives we saved, once we found out what he was doing, but he wasn't doing it by himself
DM: who was he doing it with?
LT: I'm not sure, I've given my suspicions to the police but, they said they weren't avail.. no
DM: Lewis please tell me who you think he was doing that with
LT: I can't honestly..
DM: you can Lewis
LT: if I say a name, I'm liable to be sued and all that
DM: no you wont be sued because I think I know the name you're thinking of, so if anyone..
LT: <REDACTED> ok
DM: correct and his name's <REDACTED>
LT: yes
*Debi annotates this is the 'Wealthy Businessman' or Mr R
DM: lets move to him for a moment, what was his involvement?
LT: I've saw him present with Von Einem and a guy ok
DM: doing what?
LT: umm they were in the room together, don't know what they do in the room, but they were in the room together ok
DM: ok so you are talking about a young man who had been taken into your house..
LT: yes
DM: .. taken into a bedroom
LT: yes
DM: Mr R was with that young man?
LT: and Von Einem
DM: what time was it?
LT: oh..
DM: roughly
LT: I don't know..
DM: two o'clock in the morning? four?
LT: two o'clock in the morning maybe ok
DM: ok, he was drugged? the young boy was drugged?
LT: drunk or drugged.. I don't know so
DM: roughly the age?
LT: oh mid-teens
DM: ok do you know who that boy was? did he turn up in the papers dead later?
LT: no, that person stayed at our place, and left the next morning
DM: tell me about Mr R, what's he like?
LT: honestly i don't really know him, he wasn't in my scene.. he was with um Pussy (Denis St Denis) and all those people so
DM: do you think Pussy was involved in the murders?
LT: no no
DM: how often did you see Mr R in the company of Von Einem?
LT: for that episode once, but they were.. you have to understand, back in the 70's Von Einem mixed with different circles of people ok, there was Denis and <REDACTED) - their circle, and then there was us, and we were the drug addicts and drag queens ok, the snooty queens wouldn't mix with the low life ok?
DM: really..
--
LT: we were low life in Adelaide, no one would speak to us, we could always rely on each other
DM: so you sound like you're describing, in your group, almost like the bottom feeders
LT: yes we were
DM: who was in the middle?
LT: I don't know, they're not here anymore, cant name names, don't know, but there was the social queens up there and we were down low 'cos they were drag queens, they didn't associate with drag queens back then, it's not like now
DM: so who was in that top echelon? Denis St Denis,
LT: Denis Denis[sic]
DM: Von Einem
LT: Von Einem
DM: the "Wealthy Businessman"
LT: the businessman, the doctors, all that there
DM: all the doctors
LT: yeah
DM: how many doctors did Von Einem have in his back pocket to get his drugs?
LT: that I don't know, that I would like to know
DM: so would I
LT: so would I so
DM: who would have been the ring leader, would it have been Von Einem, the beige cardigan wearing accountant who lived with his mother or was it the 'Wealthy Businessman' as they call him in Adelaide?
LT: I wouldn't know who the ring leader was, but if you're saying Von Einem's so passive, it had to be someone with a stronger personality than he had, who could order him around
DM: which year or did you ever part company with Von Einem?
LT: we parted company.. when Pru got in trouble.. and that was for.. the last two murders
DM: for what sorry?
LT: for the last two murders, or something like that..
DM: ok so..
LT: .. I don't like the look on your face so
--
DM: he was still bringing boys back to your house during..
LT: off and on.. wasn't a regular basis ok..
DM: ok ok
LT: .. he has other places to take them to so
DM: tell me again when you broke away from Von Einem and why, you said something to do with Pru Firman
LT: Pru Firman.. Pru was charged with the having sex with an underage person ok
DM: mhmm
LT: and then.. we just stopped from there so, it just got too much
DM: were you following the papers avidly when you realised that he umm had been arrested
LT: yes when the police came we gave our suspicions to the police ok
DM: so what did you do?
LT: I contacted the police and let them know
DM: has it ever occurred to you Lewis that Von Einem was not responsible for the Family Murders?
LT: no, he's got something to do with it, he's got something to do with it, unless he's taken the fall for someone, because he picked up the guys, we always thought there was someone else involved, but the police could never prove it
DM: how the hell did he get away with five murders do you think when he was living with his mother?
LT: I have no idea, honestly
DM: you knew him, you know his personality
LT: we were acquaintances ok, we were close, we were acquaintances ok
DM: acquaintances that had sex
LT: yeah.. that had sex ok
DM: Lewis how many other boys are there? how many other murders?
LT: I don't know honestly I don't know, they're the only ones i know that were reported ok, I don't know of any other murders
DM: do you think there would have been any other murders?
LT: I don't know honestly, I don't know
DM: why have you decided now Lewis to talk to me?
LT: I don't know honestly, thought might as well get it out, you're going to be hounding me all my life so, this has hounded me for all.. most of my.. half of my life anyway so
DM: look if you had something to say to those boys who came back to your house, and please try to remember or put a number on a) the amount of boys that came back to your house and b) the amount of times you had sex with those drugged boys, ok lets start with how many boys roughly were taken back to your house
LT: I'd say half a dozen
DM: ok how many of those boys did you have sex with roughly?
LT: one or two I'm not sure
DM: ok what would you say to those boys now, because umm a lot of them are still alive, some have suicided, a lot are still alive, and like you are looking back over their shoulder at a past, that is not very pleasant
LT: I'd say I'm sorry, but you're still alive, you didn't end up like those other victims, and that's all I can say I don't.. this is never going to go away is it, never going to go away, its going to haunt me for the rest of my life, so I might as well go and end it all, because that's the only way its going to end for me ok
DM: well I'm not suggesting for a moment you go and end it all
LT: but I'm just saying its just never going to go away is it
DM: its a funny thing Lewis about the past isn't it, we can never get rid of it
LT: no you can't, it always comes back and haunts you
DM: yeah it comes back and haunts everyone involved, the victims, the victims families, you, so i think you know what we're doing now is a really good thing because you're getting it off your chest, and I'd say you have been looking over your shoulder for a very long time
LT: not really, its only when people ring up, I haven't been thinking about it for twenty years, i thought it had been finished, all gone, and now it's all started over so, thank god mum's still not alive so
DM: do you.,. Lewis do you feel a sense of shame?
LT: yes I do ok, every time this comes up again i just hate it ok, I just cant live with it anymore ok
DM: so why did you decide to agree to have that suppression lifted?
LT: I thought twenty years is long enough ok, I only had that suppression there for Mum, and I knew that I had nothing to do with the murders ok
DM: what would you like to see happen now?
LT: I'd like to see the rest of them get caught you know, it wasn't Von Einem by himself, there were other people, Von Einem's paying
DM: it must sit very badly with you, that you're the one who, I for example, come to find, when we know that there is someone else in Adelaide who is hiding behind a suppression order, what would you say to that man about his name being suppressed still?
LT: oh god.. it's been twenty years get over it ok, its going to come out eventually ok, you're going to be found out eventually ok.
--
Debi revisits Lewis in the last episode of the podcast to discuss Mr R
--
DM: it's really important Lewis today that you tell me the truth the whole time
LT: ok.. I am telling you the truth
DM: because I'll keep chasing you
LT: I know i know
DM: so the boys were drugged, who would bring them in from the car?
LT: Von Einem or whoever he had with him, and on one occasion, it was this businessman (Mr R) with him so
DM: so the businessman helped Von Einem bring a drugged boy in from the car
LT: yes, that's what I remember now, your interview, the podcast, made me think and it jogged my memory,
DM: so the "Wealthy Businessman" and Von Einem take a drugged boy into your house at 2 or 3am, you witnessed that
LT: yes
DM: tell me about that
LT: they went to one of the bedrooms, closed the door, and then I could hear them giggling, so I just went back to bed, I just yeah.. went back to bed, so that was it
DM: my stomachs just turned
LT: I know
DM: who was giggling?
LT: Von Einem and the 'Businessman'
DM: what about the drugged boy? was he giggling?
LT: I don't think so no.. I think he was asleep, he was drugged so, he was unconscious
DM:I just find this so disturbing
LT: mmm
DM: that these predators are out there, cruising around, hunting, for prey, for young men, what do you think they were doing?
LT: no good.. no good
Lewis Turtur & Debi Marshall Transcript - Long Post
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Re: Lewis Turtur & Debi Marshall Transcript - Long Post
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Re: Lewis Turtur & Debi Marshall Transcript - Long Post
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